Why IBM sucks and DataStage will never be the leading tool

cppwiz · Post by **cppwiz** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:22 am

<rant=on>

The training and certification programs from IBM for DataStage are so poor and pathetic. Software Sales 101: If you want to grow your product base, you have to TRAIN developers!

Here is how the leading vendor does it:

Informatica Training and Certification packages
http://vip.informatica.com/?elqPURLPage=1346

What are the chances IBM will ever offer something like this? I know, a snowball's chance in...

<rant=off>

eostic · Post by **eostic** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:05 pm

What happened that was so frustrating? We all often pound our heads against a wall for a variety of reasons, from the software we use, to the weather outside ---- but it usually has to be pretty bad to use the particular words that you chose for your subject line.

Please let me know what I can do to help. Contact me offline if desired. I may not be able to make direct corrections, but can certainly help ensure that your voice is heard.

You are entitled to your opinion, but rest assured that there are many here and elsewhere who may offer alternative sentiments. I hope that we'll have the opportunity to improve whatever issue you ran into.

Ernie

rameshrr3 · Post by **rameshrr3** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:11 pm

I worked with a bunch of IBM consultants , and some of them really struggling to cope up with the 8.0 version of the Suite,In many cases the smartest Datastage consultants are simply NOT with IBM..It has to do with the History of Datastage itself..you probably need to look elsewhere for training.. DSXChange sponsors conduct a few training programs..

mikegohl · Post by **mikegohl** » Tue May 05, 2009 3:50 pm

Don't hold anything back; tell us how you really feel.

vmcburney · Post by **vmcburney** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:04 pm

The DataStage, QualityStage and Information Analyzer certification exams are the stock standard multiple choice exams. What do you think is missing? Granted the Informatica 90 day marketing offer is novel but I think they do marketing better than most IT vendors.

kduke · Post by **kduke** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:28 pm

I don't think certification is that big a deal. Some of the worst DBAs I know are certified. I has nothing to do with the quality of the work you do. It proves you can pass an exam by memorizing some facts. Building data warehouses is about problem solving and applying theory. If you are confident in the solutions you build as being quality solutions then it comes across in interviews and everything you do. If you need a piece of paper to prove you can do a good job then there is something else missing.

chulett · Post by **chulett** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:37 pm

kduke wrote:Some of the worst DBAs I know are certified.

Amen, Brother!

mfavero · Post by **mfavero** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:55 am

Where are all the testimonials to how good the IBM training classes are??

The issue is not whether certification is important or whether IBM has better consultants than the independents. There are a few alternative education alternatives that are better and cheaper than IBMs - always have been - DSXchange and Ray Wurlod to name two I know of.

So the point is that DataStage training has always been below par and IBM has not even tried to improve that over Ardent or Ascential.

The courses are very expensive if you ask me. Even Informatica's super duper package deals on the link above. I don't know how good Informatica's courses are but it sure wouldn't be hard to get more for the money than what IBM is offering.

IBM should be

cppwiz · Post by **cppwiz** » Wed May 06, 2009 10:40 am

As posted on this topic (link below) about a year ago, 900+ DataStage developers have answered that IBM's training is inadequate:

viewtopic.php?t=117887&postdays=0&posto ... viewresult

Ernie - I understand you have been with the product from the beginning and I know there are many excellent people working for IBM, but the product is really lacking in some key areas. Training for the product is a key differentiator between DataStage and the competition in my opinion. Over 900 experienced, active developers have said this already and IBM has not responded.

And while Ray is an excellent fountain of knowledge on DSXchange and also does training classes, he is forced to use the IBM curriculum (Powerpoint slides

) and is booked up to Oct 2010 because there is so much demand for quality training. See: viewtopic.php?t=125975
It's amazing that he volunteers so much of his time to promote the product, but one person can't do it all.

I just wish IBM as a company would show some effort and attention to the area of training and certification for DataStage. Is that too much to ask?

ray.wurlod · Post by **ray.wurlod** » Wed May 06, 2009 4:35 pm

One small correction.

I do have my own curriculum (which I happen to think is better than IBM's). Some of it fits niches that IBM's does not, some of it competes head to head. See my website for more information.

I am only forced to use IBM's curriculum when contracting to IBM to present their training, which is a fair enough requirement.

eostic · Post by **eostic** » Wed May 06, 2009 4:42 pm

...I don't think it is too much to ask --- but I absolutely question your language. There are proper channels to deal with the education issue, and based on a lot of the material I've seen (cost aside), I don't think it's fair either, to make as broad brush a statement as was done earlier.

Ernie

kduke · Post by **kduke** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:00 pm

I agree with Ernie. It is okay to express your frustration but watch how far you take it. Most of us make our living off IBM products which I think are the best. I question some of their decisions. Never want to label their company or products as bad or less than another in a public forum. I do wish they were more open to us and the rest of the IT world. They are big enough to allow all of us to make as much money as possible.

They should promote Ray and others as experts on their products and embrace and seek out their talents especially in IOD.

ray.wurlod · Post by **ray.wurlod** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:39 pm

Unfortunately developing quality training is a highly time consuming process and not, of itself, productive of revenue, so it's something bean counters tend to frown upon.

It takes about 40 hours to produce one hour of good instructor-led training, about 60 hours for self-paced training, and somewhere between 100 and 1000 hours to produce one hour of good video-based training (more where it's to be interactive with or without instructor).

Guess where all my spare time goes?

They (the bean counters) seem to find the notion that sometimes you have to spend a buck to make a buck anathema.

rameshrr3 · Post by **rameshrr3** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:25 pm

Have Bean Counters contributed to the slow dying of professionalism ..(points to ponder)..

stifling innovation? Bean Counters regard 'Spare Time' as anathema anyways..

mfavero · Post by **mfavero** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:26 pm

Interesting discussion. Rather emotional on all sides I think.

The message to IBM is simple - IMPROVE YOUR TRAINING - at least keep up with the competition. Whether you think the money leads to revenue or not.

I for one think you will get a bountiful return on investment. The better the world of developers is trained - the more your product will be used and the more it will sell. And take it like a big corporate giant - for pete's sake. If we can't say IBM or Microsoft or Coke or even Betty Crocker sucks then what's this world coming to.