copying U2 databases
copying U2 databases
This is a topic for an orphaned message.
You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no other way (Basic program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or changed? Its one thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely different thing to say the database as a whole enforces it. I think the depending on how you write them thing would not fly with the suits and bean counters.
-----Original Message-----
From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
Scott,
You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing referential integrity.
That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can make this happen, depending on how you write them.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Evans"
To: "Gordon Glorfield"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> >>
> >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database until
> >> this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of disparate
> >> data sources. And one of our latest clients has a couple of U2
> >> databases.
> >>
> >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to believe
> >> that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more than I do.
> >
> > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
> > overly sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it
> > is more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > business logic is built
into
> > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database. But
with a
> > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries against
> > the
data
> > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > indeed
the
> > way to satisfy your needs.
>
> phew.
And there you had me nervous for a while.
>
>
> > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > Ill try to help as much as I can.
>
> Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
>
>
>
>
> scott
>
-----Original Message-----
From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
Scott,
You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing referential integrity.
That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can make this happen, depending on how you write them.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Evans"
To: "Gordon Glorfield"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> >>
> >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database until
> >> this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of disparate
> >> data sources. And one of our latest clients has a couple of U2
> >> databases.
> >>
> >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to believe
> >> that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more than I do.
> >
> > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
> > overly sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it
> > is more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > business logic is built
into
> > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database. But
with a
> > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries against
> > the
data
> > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > indeed
the
> > way to satisfy your needs.
>
> phew.
And there you had me nervous for a while.>
>
> > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > Ill try to help as much as I can.
>
> Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
>
>
>
>
> scott
>
Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you have the right tools you can get around any other databases "referential integrity" just as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the applications the users use but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the database are clean.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klein Doyen T"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no other way
> (Basic program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say the database as a whole enforces it. I think
> the depending on how you
write
> them thing would not fly with the suits and bean counters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Scott,
>
> You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing
> referential integrity.
>
> That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can
make
> this happen, depending on how you write them.
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Evans"
> To: "Gordon Glorfield"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> > >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> > >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> > >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> > >>
> > >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database
> > >> until this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> > >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of
> > >> disparate data sources. And one of our latest clients has a
> > >> couple of U2 databases.
> > >>
> > >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> > >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> > >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> > >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to
> > >> believe that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more
> > >> than I do.
> > >
> > > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
overly
> > > sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it is
> > > more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > > business logic is built
> into
> > > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database.
> > > But
> with a
> > > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries
> > > against
the
> data
> > > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > > indeed
> the
> > > way to satisfy your needs.
> >
> > phew. And there you had me nervous for a while.
> >
> >
> > > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > > Ill try to help as much as I can.
> >
> > Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > scott
> >
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klein Doyen T"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no other way
> (Basic program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say the database as a whole enforces it. I think
> the depending on how you
write
> them thing would not fly with the suits and bean counters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Scott,
>
> You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing
> referential integrity.
>
> That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can
make
> this happen, depending on how you write them.
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Evans"
> To: "Gordon Glorfield"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> > >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> > >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> > >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> > >>
> > >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database
> > >> until this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> > >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of
> > >> disparate data sources. And one of our latest clients has a
> > >> couple of U2 databases.
> > >>
> > >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> > >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> > >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> > >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to
> > >> believe that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more
> > >> than I do.
> > >
> > > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
overly
> > > sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it is
> > > more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > > business logic is built
> into
> > > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database.
> > > But
> with a
> > > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries
> > > against
the
> data
> > > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > > indeed
> the
> > > way to satisfy your needs.
> >
> > phew.
And there you had me nervous for a while.> >
> >
> > > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > > Ill try to help as much as I can.
> >
> > Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > scott
> >
>
>
>
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
No, I believe other mainstream databases (oracle, sap & I believe DB2?) are tightened down to a much greater degree. Im not saying you can not defeat the checks, but they dont have commonly used tools (like ed), or programming commands that permit it. ie = if the database says its a date field, you can not write text to a record in that field.
This is another thread like GOTO vs GOSUB. The techie types hate strong enforcement because it slows everything down and makes it more difficult to program. The accounts/suits and academics love it because the computer is making sure you dont do the wrong thing ever.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:23 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you have the right tools you can get around any other databases "referential integrity" just as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the applications the users use but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the database are clean.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klein Doyen T"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no other way
> (Basic program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say the database as a whole enforces it. I think
> the depending on how you
write
> them thing would not fly with the suits and bean counters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Scott,
>
> You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing
> referential integrity.
>
> That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can
make
> this happen, depending on how you write them.
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Evans"
> To: "Gordon Glorfield"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> > >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> > >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> > >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> > >>
> > >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database
> > >> until this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> > >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of
> > >> disparate data sources. And one of our latest clients has a
> > >> couple of U2 databases.
> > >>
> > >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> > >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> > >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> > >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to
> > >> believe that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more
> > >> than I do.
> > >
> > > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
overly
> > > sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it is
> > > more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > > business logic is built
> into
> > > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database.
> > > But
> with a
> > > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries
> > > against
the
> data
> > > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > > indeed
> the
> > > way to satisfy your needs.
> >
> > phew. And there you had me nervous for a while.
> >
> >
> > > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > > Ill try to help as much as I can.
> >
> > Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > scott
> >
>
>
>
This is another thread like GOTO vs GOSUB. The techie types hate strong enforcement because it slows everything down and makes it more difficult to program. The accounts/suits and academics love it because the computer is making sure you dont do the wrong thing ever.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:23 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you have the right tools you can get around any other databases "referential integrity" just as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the applications the users use but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the database are clean.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Klein Doyen T"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
> You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no other way
> (Basic program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say the database as a whole enforces it. I think
> the depending on how you
write
> them thing would not fly with the suits and bean counters.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James La Ruffa [mailto:jlaruffa@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:14 PM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Scott,
>
> You mentioned that U2 does not have built-in constraints for enforcing
> referential integrity.
>
> That was true at one time. The U2 databases now have TRIGGERS that can
make
> this happen, depending on how you write them.
>
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Evans"
> To: "Gordon Glorfield"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:42 PM
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> > >>> Forgive me if I am insulting your firms level of U2 competence
> > >>> but, the tone of your request leaves me with the impression that
> > >>> you may have bitten off more than you will be able to chew.
> > >>
> > >> Im not exactly insulted -- we have never seen a U2 database
> > >> until this project. But we have tons of database experience; our
> > >> flagship project is all about interfacing to a number of
> > >> disparate data sources. And one of our latest clients has a
> > >> couple of U2 databases.
> > >>
> > >> As for "biting off more than we can chew", I certainly hope not.
> > >> Are U2 databases so sophisticated that an experienced programming
> > >> team, with a fair amount of database experience, wont be able to
> > >> make queries against it? What Ive seen so far leads me to
> > >> believe that the answer is "no" but you folks know a lot more
> > >> than I do.
> > >
> > > It seems you have the situation well in hand. As far as U2 being
overly
> > > sophisticated, Id have to say No. Its not really that it is
> > > more complicated than other mainstream database products, its
> > > just a completely different paradigm. Things like built-in
> > > constraints for referential integrity do not exist in U2. The
> > > business logic is built
> into
> > > the applications, not in the meta-data portion of the database.
> > > But
> with a
> > > fair amount of database experience and only doing queries
> > > against
the
> data
> > > files, I think you should be just fine. UniObjects for Java is
> > > indeed
> the
> > > way to satisfy your needs.
> >
> > phew.
And there you had me nervous for a while.> >
> >
> > > Good luck in you effort and let me know if you have any questions.
> > > Ill try to help as much as I can.
> >
> > Thanks, and thanks for the clarification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > scott
> >
>
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you have the
> right tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users
use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the database are
clean.
Nothing is idiot proof if the idiot is sufficiently talented.
> right tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users
use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the database are
clean.
Nothing is idiot proof if the idiot is sufficiently talented.
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
Theyre mostly on 5.1.10.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
All this talk of UD triggers has got me wondering about Universe
triggers.
At one time UV only supported triggers for Tableized files. Is
this still true?
Jerry Cantwell
Wally Terhune wrote:
>>From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some
>>time
> ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
>
> Wally Terhune
> Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management
> Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com
> www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED
> on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
>
> If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could
> be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other
> times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really
> handy.
>
> The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger
> seems to hammer the trigger.
>
> Colin Alfke
> Product Development Manager
> Vertical Technologies Inc.
> #450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
> P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify
> the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still
> enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the
> application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these
> constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to
> disable the constraints.
>
> The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike
> true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use
> of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding
> of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the
> later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS
> applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In
> fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and
> Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
>
> Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based
> constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better,
> just different.
>
> Gordon J. Glorfield
> Sr. Systems Analyst
> MAMSI
> 301-360-8839
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
>>To: u2-users@oliver.com
>>Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>>
>>
>>Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
>>have the right
>>tools you can get around any other databases "referential
>>integrity" just
>>as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
>>applications the users use
>>but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
>>database are clean.
>>
>>
> [snip]
>
>
> Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached
> in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or
> privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any
> unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of
> action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited.
> If you believe that you have received the message in error, please
> notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without
> copying or disclosing it.
>
>
triggers.
At one time UV only supported triggers for Tableized files. Is
this still true?
Jerry Cantwell
Wally Terhune wrote:
>>From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some
>>time
> ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
>
> Wally Terhune
> Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management
> Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com
> www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED
> on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
>
> If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could
> be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other
> times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really
> handy.
>
> The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger
> seems to hammer the trigger.
>
> Colin Alfke
> Product Development Manager
> Vertical Technologies Inc.
> #450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
> P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
>
>
> No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify
> the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still
> enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the
> application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these
> constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to
> disable the constraints.
>
> The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike
> true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use
> of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding
> of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the
> later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS
> applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In
> fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and
> Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
>
> Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based
> constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better,
> just different.
>
> Gordon J. Glorfield
> Sr. Systems Analyst
> MAMSI
> 301-360-8839
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
>>To: u2-users@oliver.com
>>Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>>
>>
>>Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
>>have the right
>>tools you can get around any other databases "referential
>>integrity" just
>>as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
>>applications the users use
>>but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
>>database are clean.
>>
>>
> [snip]
>
>
> Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached
> in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or
> privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any
> unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of
> action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited.
> If you believe that you have received the message in error, please
> notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without
> copying or disclosing it.
>
>
ECL RESIZE has never had a problem with removing triggers. Shell level, memresize had a problem (removed the trigger) and was fixed in 5.1.14 and 4.1.37 (and of course all 5.2 releases).
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:27 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
Theyre mostly on 5.1.10.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:27 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
Theyre mostly on 5.1.10.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
At 09:35 AM 10/19/01 -0600, you wrote:
>All this talk of UD triggers has got me wondering about Universe
>triggers. At one time UV only supported triggers for Tableized files.
>Is this still true?
>
>Jerry Cantwell
>
>
Unfortunately, yes...
Dave
========================================================================
David T. Meeks || "All my life Im taken by surprise
Development Engineer, DataStage || Im someones waste of time
Ascential Software || Now I walk a balanced line
dave.meeks@ascentialsoftware.com || and step into tomorrow" - IQ
========================================================================
>All this talk of UD triggers has got me wondering about Universe
>triggers. At one time UV only supported triggers for Tableized files.
>Is this still true?
>
>Jerry Cantwell
>
>
Unfortunately, yes...
Dave
========================================================================
David T. Meeks || "All my life Im taken by surprise
Development Engineer, DataStage || Im someones waste of time
Ascential Software || Now I walk a balanced line
dave.meeks@ascentialsoftware.com || and step into tomorrow" - IQ
========================================================================
Could be. I tend to say RESIZE and actually do MEMRESIZE.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:42 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
ECL RESIZE has never had a problem with removing triggers. Shell level, memresize had a problem (removed the trigger) and was fixed in 5.1.14 and 4.1.37 (and of course all 5.2 releases).
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:27 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
Theyre mostly on 5.1.10.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:42 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
ECL RESIZE has never had a problem with removing triggers. Shell level, memresize had a problem (removed the trigger) and was fixed in 5.1.14 and 4.1.37 (and of course all 5.2 releases).
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:27 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
Theyre mostly on 5.1.10.
As per an earlier post, were looking at upgrading to a more current release. I havent had any responses on solid versions. Im not sure if that means they all are, or they arent, or not many people (at least in this
list) have upgraded. In any case, its given "the powers that be" more of an incentive to pursue the idea of migrating to SQL.....
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Wally Terhune [mailto:Wally.Terhune@informix.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
From memory, I believe we fixed that resize/trigger problem quite some time ago. What version of UniData are you running, Colin?
Wally Terhune
Manager - U2 Advanced Technical Support - IBM Data Management Solutions 303.294.4866 - wally.terhune@informix.com www.ibm.com/software/data/informix
-----Original Message-----
From: alfkec@vertech.ca [mailto:alfkec@vertech.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:11 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
We implemented some triggers in Unidata about 8 months ago. Using ED on a file with a trigger defined will go through the trigger.
If there is a way around this I would really like to know as it could be handy sometimes. Although, I will readily admit, there are other times where having the triggers run on data ran through ED is really handy.
The biggest gotcha weve encountered is resizing a file with a trigger seems to hammer the trigger.
Colin Alfke
Product Development Manager
Vertical Technologies Inc.
#450, 800 - 6 Ave. S.W. Calgary T2P 3G3
P:(403) 237-7095 F:(403)237-7080
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Glorfield [mailto:gglorfield@mamsi.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@oliver.com
Subject: RE: copying U2 databases
No, thats not true. It doesnt matter what tool you use to modify the data on Oracle, the referential integrity constraints will still enforce the business rules. The business rules are not in the application but in the database itself. The only way to skirt these constraints is to have administrator access rights and use them to disable the constraints.
The triggers in U2 can be used to emulate this function but, unlike true referential integrity constraints they can be skirted by the use of editors directly on the data. At least, that is my understanding of triggers as they are implemented on U2. And they only exist on the later versions of the database. A large percentage of MVDBMS applications in service today, do not utilize this feature anyway. In fact, I personally have yet to work in a shop that does use them and Ive been continuously employed by various MVDBMS shops since 1987.
Im not saying either method of business rule enforcement (data based constraints vs. application based constraints) is inherently better, just different.
Gordon J. Glorfield
Sr. Systems Analyst
MAMSI
301-360-8839
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry P Banker [mailto:j_banker@affiliated.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: u2-users@oliver.com
> Subject: Re: copying U2 databases
>
>
> Isnt this true of all databases? As far as I know if you
> have the right
> tools you can get around any other databases "referential
> integrity" just
> as well as U2s. You build the integrity into the
> applications the users use
> but that doesnt mean that all ways of getting into the
> database are clean.
>
[snip]
Notice of Confidentiality: The information included and/or attached in this electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or privileged information and is intended for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, reproduction, distribution or the taking of action in reliance on the contents of the information is prohibited. If you believe that you have received the message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission and delete the message without copying or disclosing it.
> From: Klein Doyen T [mailto:Klein.DT@edreyfus.com]
> This is another thread like GOTO vs GOSUB. The techie types hate
> strong enforcement because it slows everything down and makes it
> more difficult to
> program.
Im a techie, but I like strong data typing. It helps me discover what Ive done wrong before I release it into general circulation. It has previously been established on this list that I dont conform to the norms for MV techies, so please dont anyone bother to tell me Im warped - I know already.
One thing I have found though is that unique constraints and referential integrity constraints in both Oracle and SQL Server can generate errors which are not always communicated properly across ODBC connections. Sometimes the only way to find out why your SQL is failing is to copy and paste it straight into isql/w or sqlplus.
and earlier he wrote:
> > You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no
> other way (Basic
> > program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one
> > thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say
> > the database as a whole enforces it.
I have not yet found a way to subvert UniData triggers on files. Whether you update the records through BASIC, SQL, AE, VI, or COPY the trigger code still gets invoked. Consequently I try to keep my trigger logic as light as possible when using triggers for replication, and let a background process do the grunt work. If you were to use them for integrity checking the logic would have to be in-line, and you would take a performance hit. As a matter of interest, a client of mine once paid some very expensive Oracle consultants a lot of money to tell them that the most significant way they could improve the performance of their Oracle 8 database was to remove all the referential integrity and unique constraints from it and process that logic in the application. I think the words used were something like "its the only sensible way if you want to support a decent number of users".
Best Regards,
Ken Wallis
Empower Data Solutions Pty Limited
Blue Mountains, Sydney, Australia
Envision, enable, enhance, ... Empower
> This is another thread like GOTO vs GOSUB. The techie types hate
> strong enforcement because it slows everything down and makes it
> more difficult to
> program.
Im a techie, but I like strong data typing. It helps me discover what Ive done wrong before I release it into general circulation. It has previously been established on this list that I dont conform to the norms for MV techies, so please dont anyone bother to tell me Im warped - I know already.
One thing I have found though is that unique constraints and referential integrity constraints in both Oracle and SQL Server can generate errors which are not always communicated properly across ODBC connections. Sometimes the only way to find out why your SQL is failing is to copy and paste it straight into isql/w or sqlplus.
and earlier he wrote:
> > You mean if you place a trigger in a file, there is no
> other way (Basic
> > program, editor etc) to prevent data from being added or
> changed? Its one
> > thing to say a trigger enforces it, but an entirely
> different thing to say
> > the database as a whole enforces it.
I have not yet found a way to subvert UniData triggers on files. Whether you update the records through BASIC, SQL, AE, VI, or COPY the trigger code still gets invoked. Consequently I try to keep my trigger logic as light as possible when using triggers for replication, and let a background process do the grunt work. If you were to use them for integrity checking the logic would have to be in-line, and you would take a performance hit. As a matter of interest, a client of mine once paid some very expensive Oracle consultants a lot of money to tell them that the most significant way they could improve the performance of their Oracle 8 database was to remove all the referential integrity and unique constraints from it and process that logic in the application. I think the words used were something like "its the only sensible way if you want to support a decent number of users".
Best Regards,
Ken Wallis
Empower Data Solutions Pty Limited
Blue Mountains, Sydney, Australia
Envision, enable, enhance, ... Empower